Navigating the Pathways of Holistic Mental Health with Dr. Benjamin Morel: A Dive into Integrative Psychiatry and Innovative Therapies

Have you ever considered that the road to mental well-being might be less traveled by traditional medicine and veer into the realms of integrative psychiatry? This week, I'm thrilled to host Dr. Benjamin Morrell, a pioneer in the field, whose own journey through early adversity fueled his quest for a more connected and holistic approach to psychiatric care. In an engaging conversation, Dr. Morrell opens up about his evolution from a turbulent childhood to excel in academia and how his unique experiences have shaped his empathic, all-encompassing treatment philosophy.

Learn more about Dr. Benjamin Morrell and Integrative Psychiatry here:
LIT United Integrative Psychiatry


Mental health is a complex tapestry woven with threads of our emotional, physical, and spiritual existence, and Dr. Morrell is here to unravel how integrative psychiatry ties these strands together. Through our discussion, we uncover the transformative power of alternative therapies, such as the potent combination of ketamine therapy and energy medicine, which offers a beacon of hope for those fighting the shadows of depression. Dr. Morrell's anecdotes and insights give us a comprehensive picture of how these techniques combat illness and harness the body's energy centers to foster profound healing and growth.

But what happens when a psychiatrist steps out of the clinic and into the great outdoors? Dr. Morrell introduces us to the invigorating concept of adventure therapy, where the embrace of nature and the rush of adrenaline become vital ingredients in the quest for mental health. He shares his personal foray into this world, from mountain biking to adventure retreats, underscoring the importance of engagement and community in battling the blues. Strap on your helmets and prepare for a ride through a landscape where pet therapy, personalized wellness strategies, and integrative practices converge, crafting a robust roadmap for anyone searching for a full-spectrum approach to their mental well-being.

Welcome to the Art of Healing Podcast community.  This podcast is devoted to helping you find what works on your journey to health and wellness.  This podcast is devoted to providing information on many healing modalities.  Learn more about:

• Reiki
• Functional Medicine
• Meditation
• Energy Healing

and more!

Learn more about Dr. Charlyce here. 

Never miss an episode of Art of Healing Podcast...the podcast devoted to helping you heal your mind, body and spirit.

Sign up for my weekly newsletter, and never miss an episode along with other great content:

Art of Healing Podcast

Stay in touch socially here:
Healing Arts Links

Learn more about me and my offerings here:
Healing Arts Health and Wellness

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:54

Welcome to the Art of Healing Podcast. Thank you for joining me. As always, this is Dr Charlize. For today's episode, we will be welcoming a guest, dr Benjamin Morel.

Speaker 1: 1:05

Dr Benjamin Morel is one of 14 children. He was raised in the humble countryside of Oklahoma. As a young boy, dr Morel always had a sensitivity and an old soul quality which allowed him to feel deeply and to connect with others emotionally. He has survived several traumatic events and adversities early in his childhood and that's how he developed a deep purpose and passion to help others. At the age of 18, he dedicated his life's work to becoming a doctor in order to have access to help people at the highest level. He graduated summa cum laude with a doctorate of medicine from the University of Oklahoma.

Speaker 1: 1:52

Dr Morel understands what it takes to start from the bottom. Dr Morel believes in not only healing but to see his clients and patients truly thrive and succeed. Dr Morel sees the mind as just one part of the healing process and understands that true healing requires that we look at the entirety of our lives. He uses the principles of integrative medicine to assist life and to help bring balance to all areas. During this episode, dr Morel and I will be discussing his innovative and unique psychiatric practice. We'll also discuss how he integrates treatment such as sound therapy, ketamine therapy, and I'm really looking forward to hearing about pet therapy. Enjoy, hello. Dr Benjamin Morel, dr Ben, dr Benaging, thank you so much for joining me. How?

Speaker 2: 2:51

are you? I am doing incredible this morning. Just got a great workout in. It's a beautiful day and about to share some good words, I'd say.

Speaker 1: 3:00

Wonderful. So to get us started, I thought it might be nice for us as a community to learn about integrative psychiatry and, if you don't mind, sharing with us what that is and how that's different from traditional psychiatry.

Speaker 2: 3:17

Absolutely Well. Ironically, this is the original psychiatry. The medications weren't available and a lot of the interventions weren't available before mid 1900s or so. So what do we have before? That was that holistic approach that everybody really wants to get their hands on it nowadays. So what it does is it takes in the mind, body, soul components, everything that is proven to help with those things, because it is evidence-based as well and then integrating that into our lifestyle. So medications are an option, not against those, but traditionally using the alternative medicines, complementary medicines, before going to such things, and in my particular practice, which is called the lifestyle integrated therapy clinic, what I do is put together individualized plans for people, for the specific person, which is another of the key differences between integrative psychiatry and the conventional that we see today is everybody goes through the exact same algorithm that is based on the exact same symptoms, that is going to get the exact same treatment, which is most likely going to be an antidepressant and some CBT therapy, yeah. So for people not wanting that option, then this is available for them.

Speaker 1: 4:42

Yeah, I have to tell you when it's time for me to refer, because my background is internal medicine. When it's time for me to refer a patient for psychiatric care, it's probably the first or second sentence that the patient will say is I don't want how do they usually say it? Like I don't want more prescriptions. I don't want to start a bunch of prescriptions and it worries me. I agree with them that I'm going to be referring them potentially to start a battery of prescriptions before they even get to know their doctor very well.

Speaker 2: 5:16

That's the really scary part is you walk into a psychiatrist's office, you meet this person for the first time and then, within 20 minutes, they've done a complete evaluation, enough to know all of your past and present and everything that's going on within you, and then, ultimately, you're going to come up with a decision to start you on probably the same one to five medications that they're going to select from. Getting the outside in doesn't end up making a lot of sense, to be honest, but this is how people are trained, that's how they are trained, that's how I was trained, so I'm not mad at them. Imagine seeing eight, 10, 15, 20 patients in a day and you don't have a lot of time to go through and explain all this stuff and truly dive into their history. Now, that being said, the situation already exists and now we have to find other ways that benefit us better and the patient better. I literally looked at it. I had that option in med school because I was like I would go and do it mentally. I'm not going to lie, all that stuff like not sleeping because it's medical school, waking up at like 3.30 in the morning to go to surgery rotations. My brother was relapsing on fentanyl and heroin, so I'll deal with that. And my dad had gotten cancer. So it was a pretty rough situation and now he's trying to still perform very highly in that particular environment.

Speaker 2: 6:46

So I looked down the pathways here and I looked at what does therapy look like? As a I'm somebody from the country. My father is Native American. I was not trying to talk about things like that in that environment with somebody new and then also to pay for it. I mean, definitely not. And then also I looked at the medications and the side effects and it looked like there's a third chance that I'm going to get better, two thirds chance that I'm going to have side effects. And that was just a gamble or a risk. I really wasn't willing to make it that particular time and for me it was also a little bit egotistical in that I didn't want to take things from the outside in to try to make myself better. I wanted to see if I could fix this internally first before I went that route.

Speaker 2: 7:38

So that is what led to me jumping into the books and studying and seeing all this just beautiful information that was not presented to me in medical school. What's frustrating me? Like the brain can change shape and structure in as little as eight weeks. We can scan it and then do an eight week intervention. You know mindfulness, the right nutrition and sleep, and you'll have a fundamentally different brain at eight weeks. I just, I was just like flabbergasted by that because, first of all, that is just groundbreaking information, because the medical model is very much deterministic, like your DNA says who you are, your genes say who you are. That's not true at all. The epigenetics has shifted that entire approach. And then I also saw a study that showed epigenetic modifications in as little as eight hours to reduce stress hormones circulating in the blood. Like change that way, legitimately in eight hours of mindfulness practice.

Speaker 2: 8:32

So I just dove entirely into that route and I had the biggest upswing and like positivity, gratitude, presence, all of those things that I had ever experienced. And you know, I had a background of pretty, pretty severe PTSD from seeing my little brother get hit by a truck when I was, when I was younger, so, and I just didn't even know that was a thing until I was reading the psychiatry books and I was like, oh, wow, you know how medical students do that thing where you read the and you're diagnosed and yourself, as you're doing it. You're so stagnant. Yeah, so that was. That was my story.

Speaker 1: 9:06

You said something kind of interesting. You said that I didn't want to take something from the outside. I wanted to. How did you say it? I wanted to fix it from within. Okay, Okay.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that, and I'm still that way now, in that, like, say, I work with you know ketamine or psychedelic medicines, or I'll prescribe on occasion. If somebody comes in with a bunch of prescriptions already, I'll maintain those with the goal to hopefully come off of them, depending on how well they do, of course. But I'm very much founded on I want you to be the one who has the power and it's not a crutch that we're taking. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:50

So and I didn't send you this question, but I did want to ask you because whenever I'm working with my own patients and you know, you and I have a similar training background, so I was trained that if you got a chronic diagnosis you were going to treat it forever. Now, of course, I've learned in the last several years it's not necessarily so. So I'll say, maybe like high blood pressure. So I tell my patients now when we're starting medication, it's a trial, we don't hopefully need this forever. With your patients. Is that somewhat the thinking that if they're coming to you on one or several medications that you hope they can start to bring down from them, or if you start something, it's going to be a forever thing, or it's a limited program, or oh no, I'm horrified by the ubiquitous use of psych meds Like these.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Things are designed to be used in brief intervals to the point where you get well and then they take you off of those. That's what they're made for, not lifelong prescriptions. But that's what they become because 80 to 95% of them are going to be prescribed by people who are not psychiatrists PCPs or internal medicine or OBGYN is actually a big one for that, because those people they just as quickly as they can get them in and kind of get them out, unfortunately so, and they don't ever like really follow up or do any of the other things. The medications are designed to help you do the work that fixes your mental health and your brain health, and then once you are there, then you are supposed to come off. So we take it in order to build the pathways that we need within our brains. It's like kind of like think about taking some kind of performance enhancing drug or like steroids for your body.

Speaker 2: 11:37

You get it up to where it's supposed to be in brief intervals and then you take it off, and that is typically how you would approach that for these kind of cases and that just kind of went by the wayside and people will end up being on two to three to four, all the way up to like 10 psych meds for the rest of their lives.

Speaker 2: 11:56

So in my particular case so if somebody's not on anything at all and they're going through an episode my goal is to figure out what is the root cause of that particular episode and then try to fix that before we add a medication to the situation. And generally I'll make an agreement with them let's give this two weeks to eight weeks to see what we can do, and I usually have great success with that by doing psychotherapy, motivational interviewing. And there are excellent supplements that work just as well as some of the antidepressants and have been studied side by side with them, with the same effects. And same thing for ketamine, which is like for a lot of people an immediate reversal of depression and anxiety in like an hour and a half or two, and it's pretty well sustained, as long as we use that to bring down the lifestyle shifts and integrate the changes that need to be made long term.

Speaker 1: 12:54

If you don't mind, that actually was one of my questions, for you was about ketamine therapy, which is still a new topic for me. I know that it's becoming a lot more common in the community and I've had a handful of patients that did it and did real well on it. Who is it for? When do you start to recommend it? What does the if you can describe just roughly, what does the program look like?

Speaker 2: 13:17

Sure, this one is a little. It's interesting, there's no way around it. When we started talking about psychedelic medications and the weird realm of spirituality and experiences in medicine, doctors very much like controlled things, and this is just not that. It's just like we're in a world of we can't quite explain what is going on, what people are experiencing. All that we know is that it seems to be very beneficial for the human psyche is to get into a little bit of an altered state that's different than what we're used to when people are.

Speaker 2: 13:58

The general way I can break this down is if people are stuck in a rut, so they're in the same thought loop and they can't get out of it and they're very limited in their thoughts and there's a direct relationship between psychopathy and rigid thinking. The person is stuck in their thought patterns. This helps open up everything and then you can see yourself, your world, your life, your partner, your addiction, whatever it is, from a different perspective. Generally an elevated, more pleasant one is what is notable with ketamine and with it you can they call it mindfulness in a bottle. You can just look at something and be like, oh, this is. I'm actually way better than that. That's not true at all, or this is, I don't actually need this drink. That is, in general, the big picture of what happens. Then, of course, there's also a secondary boost in BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. It's like Miracle Grow for the brain. Not only do we get that shift of perspective during that episode two hours long, three hours long or so well, 45 to about two Then for the next two weeks, we also have enhanced neuroplasticity where we can take advantage of that perspective, that shift and this is where my practice is different than the standard and this is the new trend in psychiatry is ketamine assisted psychotherapy.

Speaker 2: 15:33

It used to be you just shoot the person up in the room with a blindfold on in the music and you leave them and you just Uber them back home. I don't agree with that at all. I think that's just like getting people in $400 a pop and just go, go, go, go, go. Not my particular style. I do prep work to see what is this person trying to work on, and then I would gear that session towards that with guided meditation, or IV will do the sound bowls during it. The playlist is going to be curated for that particular experience and then afterwards we would break down what did they experience, what revelations did they have and then integrate that into how can we follow up on this on a day to day life? Because otherwise we have these great realizations and I'm sure you've seen this people are real motivated and they write a bunch of checks that they can't cash. So we want to avoid that because it can be damaging for some people to have this burst of just like I can see everything or I'm sure with psychedelics is very common like they can just see different perspectives and they get real excited but then they can't follow up with that on their day to day life. It could be deflating if anything. So we want to avoid that. So there's a generalized perspective of what we're doing here or concepts who it's for specifically.

Speaker 2: 16:53

There is open label studies. The only randomized control trials that we have are actually for eschatamine, the spervato, the nasal one. The reason for that is they selected one of the isomers so they could patent it. There's not a huge difference between the two and it might actually be better to take them both. They seem to act in synergy. But you can't patent it because catamion has been around since like the 60s and 70s. It's already kind of generic and it's incredibly affordable. It's like $3 a dose to reverse a depressive episode in like an hour. Who wouldn't like that? Charlize, you know I will let the people you know that's versus lifelong ability, versus lifelong ability right, or whatever other medications. So I'm not going to get too conspiratorial, but I'm just being honest. It's just not a good money making scheme. It's just not because people get better. No, no, no, I get it. Yeah, no, I get it.

Speaker 1: 17:53

Yeah, but one of the oh yeah, I get it, so I have, I have. So I have two follow up questions one more medical and one a little bit more energy medicine. So let me ask the follow up medical question which is for your patients who are going to do this therapy is it okay if they're already on prescription treatment or can they be taking other antidepressants? Or do you wean them off of what they're on and then do the ketamine?

Speaker 2: 18:19

This is actually the best part about ketamine it is not operating on the serotonergic or dopaminergic systems. It's the NMDA receptor and the AMPA receptor. So you can use it with any of the antidepressants and there's no crossover, no cross reaction. So it's one of the best things to do for that situation, because with SSRIs you traditionally would not want to use psilocybin, you know, magic, magic mushrooms, because that's a serotonergic. And the same thing for MDMA, which is going to be big, for PTSD, which is also a serotonergic. And the big thing is, like you know, serotonin syndrome. We want to avoid that, which is exceedingly rare, and I definitely know people who still do antidepressants and mushrooms and MDMA. But even then it might. I've heard that it could reduce the effect of those particular options. But with ketamine we don't have to worry about that at all. It's well tolerated, there's really no issues, maybe a slight spike in blood pressure and heart rate. That's somewhat similar to like a light jog, but it's been used as an anesthetic, like worldwide, since the, you know, 70s, 80s.

Speaker 1: 19:29

I think my little five pound cat's probably done more ketamine. She's done more ketamine than she's like 20 years old. I mean she's a super cat, but I'm like I think she gets ketamine like every other month for something. Then, from an energy medicine perspective, so recently in our community we did a master class and we sort of experimented with our seven major chakras and, as you were saying, like opening up the mind, this made me think of what we did in the course, which was working with our third eye chakra and then our higher self, our crown chakra. So is this ketamine sounds like. This is like doing that in a much bigger way.

Speaker 2: 20:15

Yeah, for sure, I do a guided meditation from root to crown, generally with songs for each one. I also geared towards the information that I have acquired from the patient. So like, if I'm doing like a heart chakra work, I want to know who they care about the most and having them visualize them and so on and so forth. And you know, you can just like see, you can watch the person's nervous system, like people will come in, they're all locked up and like their breathing is kind of erratic, and then I'll do a little bit of progressive muscle relaxation as well, and then you can just see it, that particular moment where everything just relaxes and opens up, and then all of a sudden you can just you can just see like a rush of relaxation move over their body, maybe a little bit of a smile or something. And that's certainly what got me into it, cause, like I said, energy work in medicine is something that I was. I was using that for a year and a half before I even started using ketamine and I was having great results with that alone, just in the sauna, doing breathing techniques or doing guided meditations underneath the peach trees outside, and then, whenever I finally experienced ketamine myself, you know cause. I worked with a psychiatrist and I was like, before I administered this, I want to know what's going on. Also, I had some other things from my past I wanted to work through and I applied it and, sure enough, just beautiful experience where you know you had said a lot of, you know, crown chakra, like connectedness to everything, a lot of third eye, a lot of heart and then a lot of throat chakra, certainly, where I was able to see myself and I struggled with this cause I knew that I was a cool guy.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Plenty of people had told me I did all the things, but I just never actually felt that way about me. Okay, childhood trauma, whatever it, whatever it is or was high standards, perfectionism, I couldn't tell you, but it's probably a combination of all those things. And during that session, you know, as I'm doing the breath work, as I am visualizing, and I finally had that moment where, if you could see yourself from God's perspective, how bright and shiny would you be. So in that moment I saw myself, all the best attributes of myself, in full power, you know, shining like a star, and I just felt like this just rush of like, like just awareness in that dude, this weird feeling of guilt and shame that you have or that like you're not, it is not true at all. That is just the lens of something that is just trying to absolutely rob your power, and I don't know where that came from. But you just got to say goodbye to that for yourself and the people that you care about.

Speaker 1: 22:59

So for you doing the ketamine therapy allowed you to just cut that off quickly.

Speaker 2: 23:04

Caught off that toxic stuff quickly I was able to see it and then you have to follow up with it consistently. Like I said, you might feel good for a little while, but it'll go away. For me, I kept that image in my mind, I kept that concept in my mind and I turned it into a mantra and affirmation and I would let myself into in the mirror and keep doing those particular things and that's what kept wiring it back into me to get to those higher and higher levels, and it played a huge role in what I'm doing now. I feel confident showing up on camera and on the screen and being goofy and being who I am. It's just like I'm not going to hold that back. But growing up the way I grew up, it was not a lot of the authentic expression, to say the least, but doing good now, thank God.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Well, and for the listeners, I'll be sharing Benjamin's all of his contact info on his social media. I'm highly recommending his Instagram If you're needing a daily inspiration, because I look at you and it's like what is this dude doing? You're always up to something. It's awesome. So I'll make sure, listeners, that you all know where to find it, which you may have already seen him. But so I'd like to switch gears and ask you about adventure therapy, because I saw that is one of your offerings and I think you have like a Facebook group that does that. Can you tell me about that?

Speaker 2: 24:24

Yeah, this is a recent thing that in my life I found myself and I'm sure this has happened to you where I became the person who just mitigates depression. And that was my role was just like just to help people not be depressed, and I just did not like that at all. And I was really thinking to positive psychology and which is the. If we were to fix all of your problems right, if we were to remove all the negativity, you would be exactly at zero, so that mental health does not mean the absence of the negative. There's also a pursuit of something greater, the positive.

Speaker 2: 25:06

And post COVID I realized that they're all these people, a lot of them like they just need some real life experiences in their life. Are you depressed or do you need to be on a mountain bike? And I experienced this in my own life because I was like do you not create crazy board, right? And dopamine comes with like pursuit and adrenaline.

Speaker 2: 25:25

We are apex predator human beings. We were doing everything throughout the course of humanity. We beat every famine, every beast, every disease, every war, every travel. We populate the whole planet and we're one on one with nature the whole time. Like the levels of stimulation that we're supposed to have versus what we are getting sitting on our couches looking at our laptops is not the way that any ancestor that we have had has ever lived, and we're expecting that we're supposed to be just okay with that. No, no. So for the first time in my life, I was incredibly bored because I was stable and then I was like I could feel myself wanting to cause problems. And this happens and I see it because it happens in my patients too, you know right. So sure enough.

Speaker 1: 26:15

I need to cause a problem to fix it.

Speaker 2: 26:16

Yeah, right. So I want to cause good problems, right, which was how can I create these experiences and put retreats together for people to all go to the top of a mountain, go skiing, go snowboarding for the first time, push yourself, challenge yourself, and that by itself Because I've had, you know, depressive episodes, like plenty of them that by itself was one of the most powerful experiences that I've had in my life and kind of set the standard in the tone for my whole summer. So now we're trying to build a community around it, because Oklahoma can be a little bit boring, charlize, it can be a little boring, right, it's real flat, it's real dry. So trying to find all the local adventures and people who can want to get up and go.

Speaker 1: 27:05

So for the listeners who might not be familiar, because we're both in Oklahoma and Benjamin's exactly correct it's the plains and it is flat. One comment I'll hear when people first travel here is it's so flat, there are no mountains, and they say, well, the winds come sweeping down the plains. That's a.

Speaker 2: 27:24

And the wind is brutal. That's in the song for me Right. And the wind is brutal Because the plains is flat. It's brutal. And this old man told me you heard.

Speaker 1: 27:33

And then the last thing I wanted to ask you about is I was looking through your clinic and your offerings. It was the Pet Therapy team, so I know that pets play a huge role in your family and then they're also as part of your therapeutics. Do you mind sharing with us what that looks like?

Speaker 2: 27:50

Absolutely. They're also the adventure dogs, so Tako will come with us, and I guess I should finish up on the adventure therapy. One more thing to add is taking.

Speaker 1: 27:59

Oh, I'm sorry Now you're good.

Speaker 2: 28:00

So I'm going to start to get people on one-on-one experiences or adventures out into nature for protracted times. So no phones, no distractions and sometimes do prolonged fasting for certain people, Kind of getting back to those From whence we came and pushing people in that way, especially teenagers and stuff like that. And then eventually we're looking into getting a RV right now and a motor home so I can take people on fully immersive experiences for a week or so at a time to get them away, because it takes that long to get people's systems to where they're not tweaking out to. I can actually have a conversation with them and get them to feel a day-to-day life. So that'll be very fun. And then Leo and Tako, of course, will come with us in the home because you got to have them on board. They are professional icebreakers. I've literally seen my patients come in. They're all anxious and stuff, and as soon as you put this little four-pound chihuahua in their lap they just melt into comfort and conversation.

Speaker 1: 29:05

That's awesome. That is awesome. So, benjamin, can you share with us where to find out about your adventure, therapy, all of your offerings, who you can work with? Are you accepting patients currently? If someone wants to find you, please share with us.

Speaker 2: 29:23

Yeah, absolutely. My favorite thing is definitely building out one-on-one programs will be individualized for the particular person. So I go through absolutely everything with people, which is a little strange for doctors and certainly psychiatrists nowadays, but my minimum sessions are usually going to be 32 an hour. Usually an hour we can go through sleep, which I end up doing more sleep work than I do. Therapy it's kind of crazy.

Speaker 2: 29:49

Exercise, and finding the one that benefits people that you can actually do. Concisely, it's a lifestyle we're trying to build here. And then nutrition, of course. Relationships is a big one for people and that's where that community component comes in. And then, finally, spirituality. So I usually go through that with everybody and then we'll create a daily flow.

Speaker 2: 30:10

How do we get you to a peak state of being? Once we've understood how we can shift our state from bad, sad, to feeling good and confident, you got to practice that, plug in whatever you know meditations or workouts or supplements then there, and then we would then layer a series of events like that throughout a day so you can get to peak and ride that peak for the whole day and allow yourself rest when necessary. So really building up the whole person's energy and attitude and then a couple more things if you want to get into, like weekly calendars, yearly calendars, psychological exercises, all that good stuff. But yeah, I am accepting people usually on that one-on-one basis Groups will be coming, and whether that be through psychiatry, totally fine. But I love coaching, performance coaching as well, because it gets rid of all the red tape.

Speaker 2: 30:57

So I'll take people to the gym and put them through workouts, or we'll go saw in a cold plunge, or I take some teenagers fishing every once in a while. Just, you know, they didn't have a dad, so I was like this is probably the best way to get to them. So a bunch of different ways to go about it. And this also all going to be on my website, the LitKliniccom. So LitKliniccom, and then the booking pages reach out by email, or you can find me on psychology today. Just give me a phone call, probably my favorite way to do it. I'm a little more old school. I'm okay with tech, you know, but I love, I love having a conversation. It's a little more real to me.

Speaker 1: 31:38

Thank you so much. So, benjamin Dr Morel, thank you so much for joining me. I think you've left us with so much information. I personally have learned a lot and you definitely updated my knowledge base, so I really appreciate it. Thank, you. Absolutely, thank you.

Speaker 1: 31:56

Thank you and listeners, if you'll check your show notes, I will make sure you know how to find Dr Morel's clinic, how to find his contact information, especially if you're wanting to reach out to him. I hope you caught that he now only takes patients, but he takes coaching clients, yep and free 15 minute consults.

Speaker 2: 32:11

If you need a little boost, use let me know.

Speaker 1: 32:15

Thank you, Dr Morel. Just check your show notes to find Dr Morel's information.

Speaker 2: 32:19

Thank you, Charlize.

Speaker 1: 32:20

Thanks, thanks.